In this episode, we share Tatiana’s journey, which began during her school years when she had the opportunity to study in Asia. After completing her studies, she researched and chose England as her next destination through the IEC program. Tatiana welcomed many realities during her time in England but remained persistent and landed a role in the public relations field. This week, get inspired to push through fear, remain open to new experiences and embrace the unexpected.
Emily Harrington: Before we begin, we would like to recognize that this podcast is hosted from the traditional and unseated territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe. We at CBIE are grateful to have the opportunity to learn, work and live on this land. Welcome to Audio Alumni, a podcast that features both Canadian and international voices sharing their lived experiences of going abroad. These conversations offer insight into the opportunities, the challenges, and the transformational impact that an international experience can bring. In this season, we are talking about working and traveling overseas.
You'll hear personal stories from our guests about what inspired their travels, what obstacles they had to overcome, and ultimately how their time abroad shaped their lives today. This podcast is brought to you by the Canadian Bureau for International Education or CBIE in partnership with International Experience Canada. CBIE is a national nonprofit association dedicated to supporting the Canadian international education sector in its global engagement through advocacy, capacity building, and partnerships. International Experience Canada or IEC gives Canadian citizens aged 18 to 35 the opportunity to work and travel abroad.
IEC provides youth with a path to a work permit or visa to work and explore one of the 30 countries and territories. Taking part in IEC allows youth to gain valuable international work experience while exploring the world and finding inspiration. My name is Emily Harrington and I am so excited to be your host this season for Audio Alumni. Welcome to the podcast. Today's guest Tatiana Hamlin. Tatiana's journey began during her school years where she had the opportunity to study in Asia. After completing her studies, she researched and chose England as her next destination through the IEC program. Tatiana faced many challenges during her time in England, but remained persistent and landed a role in the public relations field. Her message to others is to push through the fear, remain open to new experiences and embrace the unexpected.
Interviewer: Welcome Tatiana. I'm so excited to be able to have this conversation with you and learn a little bit more about your experiences abroad. I had an opportunity to read a little bit about you and investigate your socials. I know not everyone has that kind of time, so can you give us a brief intro?
Tatiana Hamlin: Yes, sure. Thank you so much for having me. My name's Tatiana Hamlin. I work in marketing for an arts organization in Ottawa. Besides that, of course, I love traveling. I've had the privilege of living working abroad for a few years. I'd say since then have been obsessed with traveling ever since. Besides traveling, I'm really into some little creative hobbies here and there. I'm really getting into sewing and fashion and stuff like that. Yes, that's me.
Interviewer: Now, I understand you've had an opportunity to live and work and study in more than one country. Which part of the world do we want to start in is the biggest question? [chuckles]
Tatiana: We can start from the beginning maybe. My first experience abroad was through studying. Through my university program I actually studied in Bangkok, Thailand for six months. You can start in Southeast Asia.
Interviewer: I've heard it is such a beautiful country. What inspired you to make the leap from Canada all the way to Thailand because just the journey alone to get there is a huge undertaking?
Tatiana: Yes. A couple of hours in the air for sure. Going abroad was always part of the deal with the program that I was in. I studied International Management at the University of Ottawa, and so I always knew that it was going to be part of my degree. I definitely wanted to feel completely out of my comfort zone. That was my number one thing that I thought, this first international experience because when you're going through a school, there is a bit of that support system that's around you. I thought, with the support system there, with a bit of structure, let me go to a place that I've never been before, that I don't know the language and that's as far away as possible, which sounds wild. I love my family, I love my friends, but I really wanted to have that adventure and this challenge. That's why Thailand seemed like the perfect place.
Interviewer: No, that's wonderful. Were you just studying when you were over there or did you have an opportunity to work as well? What was it like when you were there? We're going to deep dive into the whole darn thing, but I'm just so enthralled with the fact that you got an opportunity to live in Thailand.
Tatiana: I was strictly studying. I did one semester in a bilingual, so English and Thai University. I just took English classes, in Thailand. Then for the rest of the time I did about two months of backpacking throughout Southeast Asia.
Interviewer: Now were you able to, like you said there was opportunities for supports through university, which I think is so helpful because getting off of a plane when, like you said, it's a whole world away, it's a giant culture shock, what was that feeling like?
Tatiana: Definitely scary. One thing that helped tremendously is the fact that I knew that I wasn't the only one from my school that was going on this exchange. There is one person that I didn't know before this program, but we both saw our names on the sheet going to Thailand. We thought, "Hey, might as well get connected, see if we click." She's one of my really good friends now. I was able to have a travel buddy which was great specifically for that super long flight. Getting off the flight, we got in super late at night. It was eleven o'clock and like most places the airport is not close to downtown, to the city center.
We just hopped in a taxi and made our way through the city. Not going to lie, it was scary. I was pretty scared because it’s at that night you can't really see much. I just knew from what I could see that it was completely different than here.
Interviewer: Now was the university able to offer you supports in those early days of trying to understand how to set up your bank account, set up your housing, get set up with your class schedule and all of those brand-new beginning things?
Tatiana: What was great about, I guess a student exchange is a lot of those details are prepared beforehand. I knew where I was staying, so I knew what residence I was in, I knew the roommates that I was going to have as well as my class schedule. A lot of that's done beforehand, which is great. I'd say the university did provide some support. Part of the experience is, how they say is figuring it out is as much part of the international experience. You are a little bit on your own but it's nice to have all of those details figured out beforehand so that when you get there, I knew what day my courses were and stuff like that. A little bit of structure really helped to manage all of the other craziness that was happening
Interviewer: Now, how supportive was your family of you going on such a long-distance journey and being able to keep in touch while you were gone?
Tatiana: I'd say they were super supportive. Definitely surprised that Thailand was at the top of my list and definitely a lot of questions of like, "Why do you want to go all the way there?" "Wouldn’t you want to go to Europe or South America? Something a little bit closer." Once I had my mind made up, they were all for it and my mom actually came to visit me while I was there, so she definitely took advantage.
Interviewer: Now did she get to backpack with you or just get to come visit while you were studying?
Tatiana: Oh no, my mom is not a backpacker. We did a couple of the hotels on the beach. Very chill.
Interviewer: Oh, that's amazing. Now were you able to have lots of interaction and support from friends and family while you were gone? Because I know, especially with a time difference that big, it can be a struggle to keep in touch with home.
Tatiana: Surprisingly, I think because you're experiencing so many new things and you're meeting so many new people, both locals and also other exchange students, that I actually didn't really feel the need to stay connected as much with my family and friends while I was there. Also, an exchange goes like that. It goes so fast. I thought I had enough support, but I wasn't really, I wouldn't say that I was craving those phone calls, but definitely required some scheduling because of the time difference for sure.
Interviewer: That's amazing and so fantastic to hear that you were able to be so immersed in everything you were doing because I know there are a lot of people that find that adjustment a struggle and missing home and how you cope with that. Now did you find having that travel buddy helped mitigate that at all?
Tatiana: Oh yes, that was super, super helpful. Also, the place that we were staying in, so we were living in this apartment residence that included students as well as professionals and other people like that. There were a lot of exchange students that were all staying in the same place. Having the gang of us all together we really had to support each other because most of us were not from around here, and most of us did not speak Thai. We relied heavily on each other for that moral support throughout the stay. That was so helpful for sure.
Interviewer: What would you say is the biggest culture shock that you found around with that experience? What was one thing that you didn't expect?
Tatiana: I did not expect how helpful people were. Of course, from Canada were super nice and super polite and all that stuff. I wasn't expecting so many of the locals to be as helpful as they could be because they don't speak the language and Thai and English, they just don't resemble each other at all. [crosstalk] No at all. There's very little. I was so pleasantly surprised at how helpful people-- like they just wanted to help us. You're in a taxi and you're trying to read off the road and you're not using the right tone and they're like, “Let me try look at your map.”
I thought I was really surprised by that. That being said, walking around Bangkok is this huge, huge city with so many different people. I've never really experienced walking around and looking anywhere I looked, I did not understand what I was reading. Billboards at a grocery store in any stores when people are speaking to you. I have never experienced that. I'd say that was probably the biggest shock and just hearing just so much Thai and you're like, “I have no-- what are you saying right now?” Not that they're talking about me, but just like oof. That was really interesting.
Interviewer: I'm absolutely love hearing about Thailand because I think it's such a fascinating country, and the fact that you were able to do it with the support of your school, and to level up your desire to take another experience abroad after you graduated, I think that's so fantastic because it gives you a warm introduction to what it is to live abroad.
Interviewer: No, exactly. It was so nice for that first experience like you're saying, having that support. I'm not sure I would've been able to do say an experience like IEC where it's really on you to get your visa even though it's very easy to get a visa through IEC, and then getting a job while you're there, figuring out all of those things. It was nice that that first experience had that support. Also, I wasn't expecting, I knew that this was going to be a life-changing experience for me specifically that I hadn't really traveled. Before that I had been playing basketball pretty consistently and basketball is a small world and you're just in that.
This was very much opening up the door to the world, but the personal growth that I got from that experience that you're exploring the world and getting to know the world, but you get to know yourself by being in such a foreign environment. Coming back from that I was like, "Oh man," I'm obsessed with this whole personal growth thing. Let me keep this going through traveling. That was really my thing that I was like, “I need to get this feeling again.” [laughs]
Interviewer: That's amazing. You had the experience in Thailand while you were doing your undergrad, finished your undergrad in international you said international management?
Tatiana: Yes.
Interviewer: Then what led you to go to Europe the second time?
Tatiana: After graduating I ended up-- worked a little bit and then ended up doing a postgrad in public relations and in that program, I moved to Toronto to do that. It was a one-year intensive program. Through that, I actually met one of my dearest friends who had also done an international experience when she was in university and we really clicked in the way that, you know as a traveler, the people that you meet while traveling, you're like, you get it. There was like that little something and I felt that we had that even just in our classroom and we had been talking about, oh wouldn't it be nice to go and work abroad? I was really thinking I'd love to have an international career.
That's always been the reason I wanted to get into international management. Chatting with her and the program becoming buddies with her, we decided let's try to get some a bit of work experience in public relations since it was a bit of a career pivot for the both of us. Then we would go and go abroad and we chose London, England as a great place. She had been before. She had done a couple of exchanges in England and university and I knew that it would be a great place career-wise for public relations. There's just so many agencies and so many opportunities there that it just seemed like the perfect fit.
Interviewer: What was the experience like preparing to go to London versus going to Thailand?
Tatiana: Oh, yes. A lot of procrastination on my end because there's not a lot of support. There's nobody telling you, “Hey you need to sign up for your classes, you need to figure out your apartment, you need to do this, you need to do that.” You're on your own. Which is, I think is a great learning experience. Also, my friend and I had given ourselves a year to save up and to prepare ourselves as best as we could because we were anticipating, you never know how the job search is going to go. Having a bit of savings would really help alleviate some of that stress specifically when you first arrive. Prep was prep.
I got a second job to save as much as I could and I did a lot of research on the different industries that were there within PR. Started looking up some agencies. Didn't really do that much job searching before leaving. I felt like it was something that I was going to do once I got there but just preparing. We were meant to go in spring 2016 and then we were both like, “Let's just delay it a little bit. We're not exactly ready.” Also in Canada, the spring, summertime is the best season, so we're like, “Do we really want to leave when it's going hot?” Like no. Then we ended up leaving in January 2017, so a little bit of procrastination and then I was like, “No, we got to do this.”
It's really funny that every time I still get that feeling now whenever I go traveling, whether it's for a shorter period of time or a longer period of time, I get the nerves. I still get those little nerves, the nerve right before you book a flight, the nerve the day that you're leaving. I'm like, “Oh, come on. I backpacked through Asia, I can do this. This is England. They speak English. Why am I being so hesitant about this?” I think it might be because of just, I don't have a lot of friends that have done it. Sharlene, this is my friend that we went to England together, her and I, that was really the only person that I knew that had done something like that.
I don't really come from a family that has done a lot of traveling, and most of my friends being a millennial, they're just trying to get a job after university. There's not a lot of people could relate to my desire to pack up and leave. That might be why bit of nerves.
Interviewer: The fact that you were able to go with someone you knew and have a little bit of support when you got there, I think speaks of volumes as well to being able to enjoy the experience and really immerse yourself in the positives.
Tatiana: Definitely. Also having someone to lean on when it's not so positive. I think, I definitely don't want to shy away from the ups and the downs of living abroad, specifically working abroad. I thought that was a very different experience than living in a residence with a bunch of other students that's very temporary versus this was like, “Oh this could be a--" well this was a life-changing decision but for example, my friend is still living in England so that has definitely changed the trajectory of her life and mine as well, even though I'm back here.
Having her there was definitely helpful in navigating everything and making sure like, “No, this is fun.” We decided to do this. It's okay that we didn't get a job yet. We're just going to go walk around London today. It's all good.
Interviewer: I want to dive into that a little bit more. I have another question I want to ask you first. I don't get totally off track, but I think the mental health conversation is a very important one and it's one that continues to come up because there's a lot of value to it. Before we dive into that, I want to maybe do a little bit of a comparison about your experience getting settled in England versus Thailand and what that process was. Doing all those early day things of finding the job, finding the apartment when you didn't have that same structure behind you.
Tatiana: Luckily enough for the housing my friend actually moved to England a little bit before me, so about a month ahead of me. She had a friend that was already living there, another Canadian that was living there and they had found a place so she was able to move in with her, and then that person actually went back to Canada. There was an opening like perfect timing for when I arrived. I've been super, super lucky in terms of house hunting in England, specifically in London is really, it's a whole thing. I feel like I've been saved from that through my friend.
That being said, it was still determined like trying to figure out the,-- like she would share with me like, “We went to go see this house in this area” and I'm trying to Google and trying to understand how huge London is, and oh this seems really far from Big Ben. Meanwhile, you're never hanging around Big Ben, but there's so many things that you don't really know. I remember when I had arrived and I got out of the tube right off onto our streets, I was underwhelmed because it didn't look like the London that you think of that you see in movies because I'm not in Notting Hill or by Big Ben. I thought like, “Oh.”
I had a little moment like, “Oh my gosh, did I make a huge mistake? This place doesn't look that great.” [laughs] Then it was amazing. Then in terms of the job search, I'd say that you just got to hustle. You just have to really put yourself out there, showcase your value. I really tried to hone in on the fact that I would be specifically in PR where your contacts, media contacts are an important part of your portfolio. Coming from Canada, first of all, contacts are completely different, and coming fresh out of a master's program I didn't have a lot of experience.
There was a bit of the convincing that I felt that I needed to do in my interviews, to showcase that yes, you're taking a risk on a Canadian, on someone that doesn't have a lot of experience but let me show you with my passion, and desire, and the fact that I am brave enough. I'm putting that in quotation marks "to come and try and do this in a different country" was the point that I was trying to put forth, and just showcase that I'm just going to work really, really hard. Then finally an agency did take a chance on me which was great, but even with that I'd say it took a couple months maybe two months I want to say, so really, really not that long. During that time, you're also exploring a city and getting to know people, and going to different activities and events, and so it was a nice mix of job search but also fun.
Interviewer: You've landed in London, you've gone through the job search, the house hunt and all those things, let's dial it back to that mental health conversation. What are some tips and tricks you might offer someone who's trying to navigate those struggles?
Tatiana: I'd say the first thing which is just to really be open to anything, because you definitely have expectations when you're doing something like this of deciding to move abroad, and all the planning that goes into it. You're for sure making up in your head the experiences you're going to have, the people you're going to meet, the trajectory that your life is now going to take after this move. I'd say one of the main things was to remain open because you don't know how it's going to go, and it's most likely almost 95% sure it's not going to go like you planned. Having that openness will allow you to see well, I didn't get the job in this thing but I got a job in here.
Seeing it as opportunities instead of failures, I'd say that's definitely something that while I was there was not practicing what I'm preaching. I think it's more now having been back that I'm understanding yes, this was a great experience even if yes, I got a job. Was it the best job I've ever had? Definitely not. Was it a good stepping stone to where I am today? Yes, but at the time I was like “Oh my gosh, this job was supposed to be like I'm doing IC, to I'm coming to London for my career and it's just not panning out the way that I thought was like oh I'm going to get there. I'm going to start working. They're going to realize I'm a star. They're going to promote me and I'm going to run the company.”
You just have these things like people are going to know me all across the city, no they're not, it's huge. Being open, and also one thing that I wish that I would've done a bit more is to be honest with yourself and with others. If you do have a support system, whether it's people that you meet while you're there or people that you're traveling with, is just to share what you're going through. I'd say even though I was super close to my best friend, who well we became best friends after living together and in London and all that stuff, it's only now when we catch up that we share more of our down moments.
Then I realized “Oh, she was feeling that way too? Why was I just in my room with my door closed crying about something, we could have shared the moment and could have supported each other?” Just because I think people sometimes assume that they're the only ones that are going through that, but I think it's as you said mental health is such an important topic that so many people have to deal with, so chatting about it would be helpful. I'd say yes, those are my two main tips for that.
Interviewer: Now that you're back in Canada, how have those experiences impacted your career and your way of thought and that life path trajectory now?
Tatiana: It's impacted it in so many ways. I'd say one of the main things is traveling, and either studying, working, traveling abroad, has just given me so much confidence that I can handle anything. It sounds a bit crazy, and I do need to remind myself of that sometimes, but the fact that after university came back from Thailand, worked a bit, decided to do a career switch, and then after that decided I'm getting out of here and I'm going to do this career switch in a different country where I don't know anyone. I have very little professional contacts but I was able to get a job, progress in that job as best as I could even though it wasn't the best one.
Now in my position now I think one of the main reasons that I'm able to-- I've worked in finance, I've worked when I was actually in London I worked in travel for a travel agency, so very, very on brand with what I was experiencing. Now I work in the performing arts, and I think that the fact that I've been able to switch and hop into these different industries, is I think that I can do it. That I'm like “Oh yes for sure, let me just apply my skills to this other thing.” I can adapt, I am an adaptable person. That's one thing that I've realized from traveling and my experiences is that I can adapt and I can get through things.
I'd say that from a personal standpoint, from personal growth standpoint that's been the biggest impact. In terms of also personal, is I have a couple friends now that are abroad. Like I mentioned my friend is still living there. I had a chance to go visit her last fall. When I was there, I got to connect with the people that I used to work with, and so I think that's really nice to have a network of people that spans across the world. Another thing too, is just that I find traveling and just being around different people just opens up your mind to the world.
I think it's easy to get caught up in your own stuff, caught up in what's happening in your own country, in your own city. Being in a different place, in a place like London that is so multicultural, to me so international, was really great to stay connected to the rest of the world, which is a cool thing. Yes, it's also I want to do it again. I know I'm going to do it again. I'm going to go abroad again, and maybe this time I'm going to go by myself. I think that's my next little challenge. Yes, I want to go solo-dolo and figure out my accommodation and swoop in, because I think I'm ready now for that next experience, and so yes, huge impact on my life for sure.
Interviewer: Now do you have any destinations in mind or is it still just pick a point on the map you're not sure yet?
Tatiana: Pick a point on the map I'm not sure yet. I did really enjoy Europe in terms of work or that work life balance, also that you get to just travel across Europe as well while you're there. It's such a part of everyday life. I'm thinking Europe, I'm thinking maybe Germany, think Germany could be cool but I'm not sure yet.
Interviewer: Well, I will say I've heard Berlin is fantastic.
Tatiana: I know, I haven't been I want to go so badly.
Interviewer: This is absolutely fantastic. I have absolutely loved hearing about your experiences. I think it's so cool that there's the similarities and the differences between the two experiences you've had, and the way that they've really sparked that travel bag within you to-- Like you said now you're at a point where you're comfortable saying “I'm just going to pick a point on the map and figure it out as I go.” That is absolutely amazing.
Tatiana: Oh thanks, thanks. That's obviously doesn't mean that I'm not going to be nervous the entire way, during the whole planning process when I'm on the plane and when I get off the plane. I think I'm okay now with knowing that I'm going to be nervous, because I'm going to get through it.
Interviewer: Before we wrap up, I do want to say for anyone who wants to follow along with your next adventure, is there somewhere that they can watch and learn from you and be inspired by these huge leaps of faith that you're able to take?
Tatiana: Yes, sure. You can follow me on Instagram at cestatiana, so it's French for it's Tatiana so C-E-S-T and then A-T-I-A-N-A that's Instagram. Then I'm dabbling into TikTok. I have a little video up there just one about my time in London, this most recent time in the fall, and my TikTok is lotuscurls. Yes, connect I'd love that.
Interviewer: Awesome. No, thank you again so much for having this conversation and not shying away from really diving into what the good, the bad, and the ugly of that experience. I'm so grateful to be able to have had this conversation with you.
Tatiana: Thanks for having me. It's been great to chat about.
Emily: That ends this episode of Audio Alumni. We want to thank our listeners for joining us today. We also want to thank our guests for their openness in sharing their stories and our partner International Experience Canada for collaborating with us this season. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast for new episodes and visit us at cbie.ca for more content about international education in Canada. Until next time.
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