In this episode, we welcomed Hugo O'Doherty, a passionate advocate for newcomers to Canada. Originally from Ireland, Hugo's journey led him to become a Canadian citizen, and he now serves as the Director of Partnerships at Moving2Canada. Today, Hugo shares insights into his work supporting newcomers' international journeys, including individuals participating in the International Experience Canada (IEC) program.
CBIE Audio Alumni - Hugo F1 230519
Emily: [00:00:00] Before we begin, we would like to recognize that this podcast is hosted from the traditional and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe. We at CBIE are grateful to have the opportunity to learn, work, and live on this land. Welcome to Audio Alumni, a podcast that features both Canadian and international voices sharing their lived experiences of going abroad.
Emily: These conversations offer insight into the opportunities, the challenges, and the transformational impact that an international experience can bring. In this season, we are talking about working and traveling overseas. You'll hear personal stories from our guests about what inspired their travels, what obstacles We'll be talking about how their time abroad shaped their lives today.
Emily: This podcast is brought to you by the Canadian Bureau for International Education or CBIE in partnership with International Experience Canada. CBIE is a national non profit association dedicated to supporting the Canadian international education sector in its global engagement through advocacy, [00:01:00] capacity building, and partnerships.
Emily: International Experience Canada or IEC gives Canadian citizens aged 18 to 35 the opportunity To work and travel abroad. I E C provides youth with a path to a work permit or visa to work and explore one of the 30 countries and territories. Taking part in I E C allows youth to gain valuable international work experience while exploring the world and finding inspiration.
Emily: My name is Emily Harrington and I am so excited to be your host this season for audio alumni.
Emily: Today we're talking to Hugo Aughtry, who is originally from Ireland, but moved to Montreal in 2011, eventually becoming a citizen of Canada in 2022. Since relocating to Canada, Odatry has accrued a decade of experience supporting fellow newcomers. He presently serves as the Director of Partnerships for Moving to Canada, a digital platform that empowers recent and prospective newcomers to achieve success in Canada through expert information and access to [00:02:00] job opportunities.
Emily: Hugo is here today to talk to us about his work supporting others on their international journeys. Hi, Hugo. It's nice to meet you. Thank you for having me. So thank you so much for being on the Audio Alumni Podcast today. I would love to start with a quick introduction about who you are and what brought you to have this conversation today.
Emily: Thanks for
Hugo: the opportunity. It's a pleasure. My name is Hugo. I'm from Ireland, Dun Laoghaire, which is a town just south of Dublin City. I moved to Canada, first of all, in 2011 and actually left for a little bit in 2012, came back in 2013. To Montreal, so I kind of moved to Montreal twice and I've been here ever since.
Hugo: So I've been here on a straight run now since March 2023. So a decade plus, I have been working for moving to Canada, which is a website that some listeners might be familiar with. That's moving and the number 2 Canada. com currently as director of partnerships, previously serving as editor and for a brief stint [00:03:00] as product manager.
Hugo: Yeah, I've been in Montreal the whole time. I originally came on the International Experience Canada program, specifically the working holiday category, and that was sort of my springboard
Emily: into Canada. Very cool. So what inspired you to take an international opportunity and to choose Canada more than once, obviously?
Emily: I mean, we've done something right if you came back.
Hugo: Yeah, it's true. Well, in the little gap in between, I was in the United States. So as a reference point, Canada was elevated. Uh, so that was in 2012. Things have changed there since. I was 24 when I first moved here, uh, in 2011. And at that time in Ireland, as in many.
Hugo: Parts of the world, the economic situation was pretty rough. I just graduated from a master's course in journalism. And within a few days of that, I upped sticks, packed my bag and gone to Canada. I sort of planned that exit halfway through that course. And I had my flight booked and everything. I just didn't see in the [00:04:00] short term, many opportunities for me in Ireland.
Hugo: Um, despite the fact that it's a place I love and that's where my family's from. And even though I'm a dual citizen, I sometimes forget that I'm Canadian. It's in my heart. I'm Irish all the way. Yeah. That was the sort of the push factor of the economic situation in Ireland, but also the pull of Canada.
Hugo: It's not necessarily that I chose Canada per se. I really chose Montreal. I was looking for a city and I was actually weighing up Montreal or Melbourne at the time. Um, so that would have dictated which work permit I went for. And I was humming and hawing through the early part of 2010 on that. And then, uh, ultimately I went for Montreal.
Hugo: It's closer to home. And I figured it would be kind of a more challenging city to move to in a good way in terms of the fact that I didn't speak French back then to any reasonable degree. And yeah, it looked like an affordable place that was fun and not too far from home, just a hop, skip and a jump over the ocean.
Hugo: So yeah, that was the push and the pull factors that ended up with me here in Montreal.
Emily: That's [00:05:00] fantastic. I mean, in terms of weather, I think I can't say Montreal is a better choice versus Australia, but overall, I think we're done pretty good. You know
Hugo: what? You don't get out skiing or skating much down in Australia.
Hugo: So I've never been, so I can't comment, but yeah, Montreal. It's got proper four seasons. I mean, right now it's spring, probably the only time of the year where the weather here is comparable to the weather I grew up with, you know, sort of sitting in that 10 to 15 degrees range. But apart from April, it's wildly different to what I grew up with.
Hugo: I'm into it. I kind of like it.
Emily: So no, that's wonderful. Like you said, you Didn't speak French. So that is a very bold move to come to Montreal, not knowing French and just totally immerse yourself in a culture and in a second language.
Hugo: I mean, you're, you're assuming that I did immerse myself. I mean, I, I did play it with a pretty straight bat.
Hugo: I got a job downtown as a bartender, downtown Montreal. I'm sure you've been. You can kind of get by with with English, but in other ways, like I made sure I lived with [00:06:00] francophone people so that I could at least have that experience and push myself a little more in that direction. Yeah, I moved here with sort of, I've done some French in school, but it wasn't.
Hugo: I really wasn't very good, and it took a few years. In fact, the Quebec government demanded of me, and understandably so, that I'd reach a certain level of French before they'd issue my immigration papers. So it was really in that sort of 2015 2017 range that I really ramped up my French. Good for you. It took a few years to sort of get going on it in earnest, but got there in the end.
Emily: No, that's fantastic. And like I said, kudos to you for taking a leap like that. Did you know anyone in Canada before you
Hugo: came here? I knew people in Canada. I had a cousin in Toronto who had moved a few months earlier that I'm very close to, but nobody in Montreal.
Emily: I am so impressed by people who take that absolute leap of faith totally on their own and just trust your gut that you're going on this incredible adventure.
Emily: Now, you said you started out bartending when you came to Montreal, but now you're [00:07:00] working with moving to Canada. How did you get involved with that organization and what kind of led you down that path of wanting to support other people trying to make the
Hugo: leap? I've already referred to the fact that in 2012, I was living in the States, but I was actually visiting Montreal pretty often at that time as well.
Hugo: I was only down the road in New York City and, uh, I was visiting and obviously I didn't have a work permit for Canada, but I had the intent to move back and I'd already sort of started that process. I saw in an Irish newspaper, the Irish Times, reference to a new website called Moving to Canada that a gentleman in Vancouver by the name of Robert Spillane, who's now my business partner, had started, and I was looking for something to do.
Hugo: I was in Canada as a visitor, so I couldn't earn, but I did tell him that I would write his entire Montreal section and send it to him, and he could do whatever he wants with it. Because it was something to do, but, uh, I did tell him up front that if he was impressed by the work, once I got my [00:08:00] work status that I would, uh, like to freelance for him and I gave him my rate and he said, yeah, let's do it.
Hugo: And that's kind of how it started. So I was just, I was here without work status and I was just looking for something to keep me busy. And that's kind of how I got started. I just cold called him. Like, I don't, I can't even remember how I got his number. But he got a call from me, a relative stranger, and that's how it started.
Hugo: And then I was working with that for a year, a year and a half, and then I was headhunted by an immigration lawyer, the late David Cohen, a wonderful man who ran a law firm in downtown Montreal. And, uh, he brought me in as content manager, so running a couple of their websites. And then. About 3 or 4 years later, I came back home to move into Canada, but this time on a full time basis and with my permanent residence status.
Hugo: Secured. And that was just over five years ago, give or
Emily: take. So when you came back full time, were you in that partnership's role already? Or have you [00:09:00] transitioned throughout the company? Because I mean, obviously you've seen it grow right from the early stages.
Hugo: I've seen it grow, and then I've seen it shrink, and then I've seen it grow again.
Hugo: Um, So this time, three years ago, it was a very scary space to be working in. Our revenue streams were solid and diverse, but suddenly the borders were closed for an indefinite period or it wasn't even indefinite. It was like for 30 days and then 30 days. And then it was just kept on being renewed. So at that time we were a team of 11 and I was working as editor.
Hugo: Cause my background is journalism. My experience is publishing, writing, editing, et cetera. But we went from a team of 11 to a team of three in one morning. So, oh, wow. Yeah, so myself, Rory, who I've already mentioned, and my colleague, Dane, he's an amazing sort of generalist, and, uh, just can kind of do bits of everything, and that's what we needed.
Hugo: We needed Swiss Army knives. We needed people who could. Wear multiple hats. So for 2020 and 2021, I wouldn't even say that I had a specific role. It was just like, do [00:10:00] whatever it needed to be done. And then over the past year or so I have transitioned into this B2B business development role, uh, directive partnerships, which is not at all.
Hugo: Really on paper related to my training, but then again, my training is from 15 years ago and, you know, people meander through their careers and pick up different roles. And this is what I'm enjoying now. And I'm hopefully bringing a lot of value to the organization and to newcomers at large, our mission is to empower them to achieve their dream life in Canada.
Hugo: And we work with ally organizations that help them achieve those goals. And, uh, it's an exciting time to be in the space for sure.
Emily: Well, and I feel like the journalism skills would be incredibly relevant because it's all about communication. So you get to focus in communication in just a fun and different way.
Hugo: I definitely agree with you. There's a lot that I fall back on in terms of writing, editing, just chatting to people. Like as a journalist, you're constantly [00:11:00] reaching out to strangers and trying to secure something from them. Business development is actually not that different. You're, you're, you're prospecting, you're, you're making your pitch.
Hugo: You're trying to secure people's time and attention. It's not that different to being a reporter, honestly. Now I want
Emily: to ask a couple questions about your job and about your, about your role of being able to support people looking to move to Canada, because like you said, the economic situation, especially over the last couple of years, continues to change dramatically.
Emily: So I'm sure you are flooded with questions and inquiries constantly of, You know, what was your experience like? What would you recommend to anyone who's looking to make that transition yourself? What are some of the most frequent questions you get from people looking to move to Canada?
Hugo: How do I move to Canada?
Hugo: How do I get a job for Canada? How do I get my work permit? How long will it take? How much money do I need to have? Uh, where should I move to? Is it really that cold? Can I bring my sweaters from back home or should I buy new ones in Canada? Can I bring my spouse to [00:12:00] Canada? Can I bring my dog to Canada?
Hugo: Can I bring my prescriptions to Canada? I mean, I'm not reading from a list here. This is just off my head. These are the most common questions we get. What are job opportunities like for? Industry X in location Y. So, um, for example, we work with a recruitment organization who sort of sister part of the company called outpost working specifically with engineers and construction professionals seeking work across the country, but primarily B.
Hugo: C. Ontario and some of their questions would be around. What are the costs of living in Vancouver? How much can I expect to earn as a mechanical engineer in Toronto? What are the prospects for promotion within a company if I move from, say, the UK, or the US, or Australia, or Brazil, wherever, to The city, because it's not just about what it looks like for the first year or two.
Hugo: People really want to double down on their move and try and lengthen that time [00:13:00] horizon so that they can see what Canada looks like in five, 10, even 20 years, especially if they're moving with a family. Yeah. So the questions can become pretty deep and detailed like that. But yeah, some of the standard ones are just like, how do I move?
Hugo: How do I make it happen? The Canadian immigration system is kind of. Curious, because it's based around this point system as well, which you might be familiar with at a high level, but basically you get a certain number of points as a would be economic immigrant for things like your age, level of education, language ability in English or French, or both, work experience inside and outside Canada.
Hugo: And some of the questions we get are, how many points do I need? What do you think the points requirement will be in six months, et cetera. So there's a lot of questions around that and people don't come at it. Those kinds of questions come from people who are less ignorant about the process and actually really invested in it.
Hugo: So they've already taken some actionable steps towards their move, [00:14:00] like taking a language test or doing some deep research on how it all works, but they still come back with questions like that. And understandably so. I mean, it's it's a competitive environment. There's more people around the world who want to move to Canada and who are eligible to move to Canada than the quota for immigration in Canada actually is set at.
Hugo: So the government's going to take in somewhere in the 450 to 500, 000. People range annually over the next three years, but there's multiples of that around the world who would actually like to have the opportunity to move here. So it is a competitive environment. It's a competitive system. Do you work
Emily: with people once they get into Canada, helping them make that transition?
Emily: And just what are some of the common struggles you hear of people trying to adjust to life in Canada, especially, I mean, especially if they come in the winter time, but
Hugo: yeah, no, it's true. I mean, first things first is like our website moved to Canada. Is free for all users. So there's no transaction that takes [00:15:00] place, at least with our community paying us for anything, everything's free.
Hugo: And that kind of makes us unique and we work with organizations that want to market to those users. So for example, if I'm a recruiter and I wanna find quality candidates and we've got a bank of candidates that are about to move, then the recruiter and us have a relationship. But everything is always free to the user.
Hugo: That's just one example you can think across insurance, real estate, aviation, et cetera. So when you say, The people we work with, we work with our community for free, and we work with other organizations on a business level. Back to your specific question, like, we just released a video this week about mental health challenges for newcomers.
Hugo: It's, it's an incredible piece of content that our talented team based in Vancouver has put together. It's a deep dive. It's got interviews with specialists as well as with maybe 7, 8 or 9 different newcomers to Canada about their experience. That just dropped a few days ago. So, like, we try not to just come in at the, like, practical level.
Hugo: We also try to, [00:16:00] and I think succeed in, taking the more holistic, moving experience, getting the community to take part in the content that we're developing, and serving it back to them. And scaling that, making it all available for free. So some of the questions we get that other organizations that might be less willing to answer are around, like, mental health challenges, general health challenges, but then some of them are more sort of typical or mundane around, like, how to get an apartment, how to buy property, if you're in a position to potentially do that, if you're settling in Canada longer term.
Hugo: People moving with families in particular, like how to get a family doctor, how to find a school. And then there's questions around your first week or month in Canada. Like there's a sort of a, your first week in Canada is sort of set. You need your social insurance number. So that's a, that's it to do. And then you need a bank account.
Hugo: You've got 5, 6, 7 options that are countrywide. And that's one thing you have to do. And then getting a phone plan, that's another thing you have to do. [00:17:00]
Emily: Alright, so we were talking a little bit about some of the challenges that come with starting this journey in Canada and trying to get settled. Do you see a lot of people that actually stay in Canada long term or do a lot of people, you know, struggle with the experience and take off or go back home, for example?
Emily: Yeah,
Hugo: great question. I mean, Thank you. A lot of people move and they think it's the land of milk and honey. I mean, Canada's got a very strong international brand. It's beautiful. Uh, the cities look kind of cool. Mountains, lakes, you know, wild, open spaces. And people think it's just going to be this incredible adventure.
Hugo: But then the reality on the ground, you know, You're budgeting, you're struggling to find work, you're not getting promoted, social life, you miss your friends, uh, wherever you grow up, et cetera, and it's, it's, it becomes increasingly more difficult to make friends as you get older, I don't know if you guys have experienced that, uh, if you move city, you're that weirdo going like, oh, you like ice cream too, that's my favorite flavor, or whatever, you're like, you're just trying to make friends left, right, and center, [00:18:00] and they don't need you as much as you need them, you know?
Hugo: And then in terms of career, some people just like the reality on the ground, doesn't meet the expectation and they might leave. For example, my colleague Rory had a piece in the Toronto Star recently about challenges facing newcomers, but kind of pointing the finger at employers, not necessarily newcomers because Canada, I mean, the government is providing this incredible pipeline of talent.
Hugo: Um, but employers are somewhat reluctant, uh, obviously there's loads of exceptions to this general rule of thumb, but somewhat reluctant to engage with newcomers pre arrival. So if someone says, Hey, I'm an engineer, I'm from France, I'm in Paris, I'm moving to Ottawa next month. I've got this degree, this level of experience, and I'm ready to go.
Hugo: Employers are still sort of saying like, when you land, swing by our office and we'll have a conversation. If that doesn't really match the level of investment, emotional and practical that newcomers are bringing [00:19:00] to Canada, that they're uprooting their lives. And Rory thinks, and I shared the view that employers would be really well served to build a pipeline of talent that they have nearly exclusive access to because the earlier that you can speak to people abroad, then interview them, potentially just a little screener.
Hugo: Then newcomers will move with a higher degree of confidence and be more likely to settle. What we sometimes find is that newcomers move, they're jobless. And then they're going around to different offices in person when honestly, the world's moved on a bit, you and I are talking across a couple of hundred kilometers today, I can see your face and everything's great.
Hugo: If, for example, you're an employer and I was a candidate, this would be a great format for an interview and employers need to do a bit more of that and less of the, okay, when you land in Canada, swing by the office. These are some of the sort of holistic things that we think of. When we talk about the new experience, because there's different stakeholders, it's not just on the newcomer to make sure that their move is a [00:20:00] success.
Hugo: I mean, they are ultimately the main beneficiary of that, but we need a more sort of team Canada approach where you've got the government delivering the pipeline, the newcomer choosing Canada over other developed countries. I mean, I referenced Australia and us already people have these options. And then I think newcomers would be more likely to settle long term, not just move here, but settle and make Canada their forever
Emily: home.
Emily: And I think the fact that you guys are consciously working towards that support mechanism is fantastic because I think there is, like you said, this huge gap of, we still were lagging behind the times a little bit in. We can have these conversations totally remotely, you know, I mean, I could be wearing my pajamas right now and you'd have no idea.
Emily: [00:26:00] I would love to dive back into the mental health conversation a little bit because I think that is an important point that every single person I've had the opportunity to speak with has mentioned that it's not enough of the conversation.
Emily: And I think this has proven to be an incredible platform that when you come to Canada, there is a lot of you know, tolls on your mental health that need to be taken into account and you need to understand, you know, what supports we can offer to help you to make your time here successful, or even for anyone who's going abroad, you know, how we support that part of your journey, because it is a big part.
Hugo: It hasn't been enough part of the conversation to this point. I think we're kind of at a tipping point where there's a critical mass of people who are ready to share their stories a little more, perhaps a little guardedly. They're at least hearing other people tell their stories, which might provide a sort of a mirror to their own experience as [00:27:00] a newcomer.
Hugo: Yeah, like, I mean, from my own experience. There was a time around 2016 into 2017, when I didn't have a reasonable expectation of being able to stay here. Just the immigration process was, was so tricky in Quebec specifically for me at that time. And then when I did ultimately submit my application, it took.
Hugo: The guts of two years to process. And during that time I couldn't change employer. So I felt like my career, I wasn't enjoying my job anymore. Uh, but I have to do it and I didn't have the freedom of the labor markets. I mean, that's the case for. Hundreds of thousands of people across the country who might otherwise like to change jobs, but aren't in a position legally to take that step, at least not easily.
Hugo: They might have to secure sponsorship from another employer, and that's a very hard thing to secure. So that was my challenge at that time, and it did take a huge toll on me. And I'm happy to [00:28:00] share that I did speak to a professional about it because it wasn't the only thing going on, but it was a sort of the driving force of my unhappiness at that time.
Hugo: Ultimately, things landed okay for me. But that's not necessarily the case for everybody. I mean, more recently, especially during and post pandemic, there's a lot of people in Canada. A status here is they do have status, but they don't know how or when they might be able to stay long term. That's very challenging for people.
Hugo: It's very anxiety inducing for people. And I'm only here talking about the immigration process, which is sort of a bureaucratic hurdle. People have other challenges in terms of their social life, their career, the climate, their romantic lives, and all these things tied together for newcomers. It can be very challenging, especially when.
Hugo: They don't have their family to hug or their friends to go for a drink with or to go for a walk with potentially their hobbies are different. Maybe they came here and there's no cricket club wherever they live or something, and that's [00:29:00] what they grew up playing. So they don't even have those sorts of institutions or activities available to them potentially.
Hugo: So it can be exceptionally challenging for newcomers, and that's the case for people who move. Anywhere around the world. And I mean, like, there's people around the world who have way more challenging situations in terms of being internally displaced or as refugees, particularly if the catalyst for that was around violence or warfare.
Hugo: So I'm not comparing at least my experience with anything like that. And I think that the general. Experience of mental health challenges that newcomers in Canada face are in a certain category, and that there's a whole other category of people who are displaced against their will, but for people who chose to move to Canada and Canada was their conscious choice, and they made a decision to uproot their lives to hear it's nonetheless challenging for them.
Hugo: And I think we're at a tipping point now where it's going to be more and more part of the conversation. Especially with cost of living factors as well later on top [00:30:00] and, and all this stuff, there's just so much going on. I
Emily: absolutely agree with you. And I can't wait to sit and watch the content that you guys put out.
Emily: Cause I think anything we can do to bring awareness to that piece of the conversation is huge. Like you said, people come with this idea of Canada's a beautiful place and that there's so many adventures and possibilities and. You do have to get busy, you know, living life and going through the routines and building a routine.
Emily: And I think the fact that you guys are able to support people through that part of the transition is so incredible. Because when you might be new to the language, you know, you're new to the social constructs of an area. How do you find those resources?
Hugo: They are increasingly available, whether they're sufficient is another question, but the trend line looks good, but we're not there yet.
Hugo: Thank
Emily: you so much for having the conversation with me, Hugo. I am so inspired by people like you and what your organization is doing for people [00:31:00] looking to take on the journey of coming to Canada and, you know, embrace our beautiful landscape. So thank you so much for carving time out of your day to have such a cool and powerful
Hugo: conversation.
Hugo: Thank you for having me. Thanks for facilitating this conversation and thanks for really engaging on the mental health aspect of the time that we've had together. I didn't necessarily expect that to be such a big piece of the conversation, but I'm delighted it was.
Emily: Wonderful. No, thank you again. And for anyone who is looking to make the journey, they can find you through the Moving to Canada website and connect with you and everyone else on your incredible Continually growing team.
Hugo: Cool. Thank you very much.
Emily: And that ends this episode of Audio Alumni. We wanna thank our listeners for joining us today. We also wanna thank our guests for their openness in sharing their stories and our partner International Experience Canada for collaborating with us this season. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast for new episodes and visit us@ccb.ca for more content about [00:32:00] international education in Canada.
Emily: Until next time.